Stranica: 47/139.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 11:51
Postao Mr.Spaceguy
Potpuno krivo. McLaren nije naredio Hondi da smanji motor. Honda ga je sama htjela ekstremno smanjiti. Imas i izjave iz Honde koje to potvrduju.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 12:09
Postao Slavenowsky
Ukljuci malo logiku, a pokusaj malo proguglat sam pa ces naci sve moguce analize vezano za Hondin problem. Ja ne tvrdim da je McL kriv, ali djelimicno jeste, jer da bi aerodinamika bila onako dobra kako kazu, motor je je trebao biti momacki zipovan. Koncept je trebao biti revolucionaran ili slican Mercedesu, no problem je bio jako slozen.

MGH-u i turbo je bio jedna cijelina, zajedno sa komoresorom, imali su malu turbinu, to je sve da bi se dobila top aerodinamika. Od tog koncepta tvrdoglavo nisu odstupali Honda, a i McL. Ta prica oko najbolje sasije ne pije vodu, jer da bi je imali moralo se je nesto zrtvovati, u najgorem slucaju jo je bio motor. Takvo sto je i Ferrari uradio 2014, veci fokus je bio bacen (na kraju uzasnu) aerodinamiku, a motor je bila bolna tacka.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 16:46
Postao Slavenowsky
Evo kao da me je Eric cuo sta smo pricali ovdje:

https://www.f1puls.com/16697/alonso-mom ... onda-nije/
McLaren boss Eric Boullier says the team would be winning if they were still powered by Mercedes engines
Opsirnije:

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... c-boullier

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 17:08
Postao Grah0
Jest kako da ne...

Послато са ZTE Blade V6 уз помоћ Тапатока

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 18:34
Postao Slavenowsky
Ne bih tu bilo pobjedjivanja u smislu jurisanja na titulu, ali bi jasno imali neki znacaj u vrhu. Williams i FI su imali nekoliko dobrih izdanja, ako McL tvrdi da su imali odlicnu aerodinamiku, a los motor, onda ne vidim razlog zasto ne bi pobjedjivali na Mercedesovim motorima?

Evo paradoksalno RBR je bolji od proizvodjaca motora aka Renault-a.

Jednostavno ovaj izlet sa Hondom je bio prebrz i i preambiciozan.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 18:55
Postao Clark
Mr.Spaceguy je napisao/la:Potpuno krivo. McLaren nije naredio Hondi da smanji motor. Honda ga je sama htjela ekstremno smanjiti. Imas i izjave iz Honde koje to potvrduju.
Je, zbog onog famoznog "size zero" koncepta.

Eric Boullier, travanj 2015.:
“Having the engine, its ancillaries and the ERS impede on the car’s aerodynamic performance was simply not an option,” said McLaren racing director Eric Boullier. “The chassis has been designed to wrap up so compactly at the rear that we had to include all elements into a tight package with nothing sticking out. In order to achieve this, Honda actually had to make several attempts and come up with three versions of the power unit because the initial two did not meet the chassis/aero technical specifications. It took them a lot of effort.”

Tim Goss, kolovoz 2015.:
‘The most significant change for us was the transition from a Mercedes power unit to a Honda power unit,’ Tim Goss, McLaren Racing’s technical director says. ‘With Mercedes we had a customer relationship, the power unit was developed specifically for the Mercedes chassis, and we just had to package what we were given. With Honda, we are back to works team status, so from the outset we had the opportunity to shape the power unit and all of its ancillaries in exactly the way we wanted, so we could fit it around the philosophy we had had for the car.’

Yasuhisa Arai:
This solution uses gas dynamic rectifiers in the exhaust manifold which basically ensure that the exhaust gas pulses are directed to the turbine in the most effective way, meaning that the MGU-H can recover significantly more energy from the exhaust gasses at the turbine than is possible with a more conventional
exhaust manifold. It is also notably smaller than a conventional design. ‘It’s a compromise with the aerodynamics, that’s the main reason we did that,’ Arai explains. ‘We discussed the layout with McLaren, to find the most efficient way to design the complete car.



Part of the issues stem from the constructor’s radical split-turbo design, which has the turbine at the back and the compressor sitting within the ‘Vee’ of the engine. In order to be in concordance with McLaren’s “size zero” philosophy, both components were downsized as much as possible.

The problem is that a smaller turbine generates less power and more back pressure, which ends up penalising the internal combustion engine (ICE) in the higher RPMs. As a result, the MGU-H absorbs less power from the turbine shaft, and is not capable of charging the battery and supplementing the MGU-K.

“The size led to the inefficiency,” Arai confessed. “The size is small so the engine needed high pressure air. So that means the high rotation - 120,000rpm - is the limitation.”

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 19:38
Postao Mr.Spaceguy
Eric Boullier thinks there has been a "big misunderstanding" over McLaren's 'size zero' aero concept and insists the team did not impose anything on Honda.

The tight packaging of last year's car was labelled 'size zero', a concept which has been retained in the design of the MP4-31. The 2015 challenger was beset with reliability and performance issues as engine supplier Honda endured a troublesome return to the sport.

There has been some suggestion that the tight design had some impact on Honda's problems last year but Boullier says that is not the case.

"I think there is a big misunderstanding with this size zero concept, which I am going to try to kill now," Boullier said. "There is no overheating issues, never have been. Second, the size zero concept is to give the aerodynamicists as much space as possible to create and invent downforce.

"We have never ever imposed anything on Honda, they do what they want. If they come with an engine like this [big] then we have to accommodate this in our size zero, which would not be a size zero any more. There is absolutely no constraint and if we keep this concept because we are happy with it and we believe in the concept, it will help us catch up quicker faster than any others."

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 19:44
Postao Mr.Spaceguy
Yusuke Hasegawa, Honda's new head of F1 project, confirmed Boullier's comments, with Honda's cooling problems last season not being attributed to the car's concept.

"We have never had a push from McLaren to make the engine squeezed," Hasegawa said. "But last year we had issues with cooling, but that is lack of our experience and we didn’t understand how much size was necessary for the cooling. For this year we modified."

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 20:43
Postao Slavenowsky
Koje bacanje pjeska u oci. Kako ne shvacas da je sav proces svih problema u da tako kazem "minijaturnom" paketu.

Napisao sam gore, da su obe strane i dalje tvrdoglave oko ovog koncepta i ne odstupaju od istog. Ne znam sta je cilj McLarena? Da pustaju Hondu da i dalje caprka dok ne kazu eureka, pa idu u pobjede ili da osvajaju bodove! Ovakav pristup ne donosi nista.

Evo 4 problema koja su mucila Hondu, ovo je jos nakon 2015 god!

1. The size of the ICE

The Japanese manufacturer’s V6 Turbo power unit has proved to be both slow and unreliable this season. Things have improved, but one of the main issues is the actual size of the ICE and the packaging of it, as Will explains:

“Probably a decision made in part by McLaren, Honda’s packaging is very good but it has its compromises. It has the same architecture as the Mercedes PU but on a much tighter scale and with that come the drawbacks, although they seem to have got on top of any cooling problems they had earlier in the year.”

2. The turbo

Of course, the new generation of F1 engines are turbocharged V6 units. Another significant issue McLaren has faced is the size of the ‘split’ turbo and this has caused severe issues with top speed, particularly at the end of straights – which is why we see them getting mugged so many times! Will explains:

"More specifically, the turbine is pretty small so it can all fit within the V of the ICE, with the MGU-H sat between it and the compressor at the front of the engine. Because it’s so small, the initial throttle response is very good and actually places less reliance on the MGU-H to spool it.

"However once the car starts hitting top speed, it can’t harvest as much energy as those with bigger turbines. Because the MGU-H is allowed to transfer energy directly to the MGU-K (and vice versa), power levels drop compared to its rivals and therefore they suffer right at the end of the straight."

3. Hybrid system in general

Basically, Honda’s entire hybrid system is massively flawed and it can only provide a limited amount of extra power compared to its rivals, like the dominant Mercedes. Here’s further analysis from Will:

"Firstly, we know that the car can only use 4MJ of energy from the battery per lap. However, as I said above, the MGU-H and MGU-K have an unlimited relay of energy. The McLaren drivers get through their 4MJ allowance from the battery very quickly because the MGU-H is so poor at providing power to the MGU-K. So they can only afford to use their battery energy when it really counts. This may not be as bad for qualifying, but over a race distance it’s far more inefficient than the others."

4. Fuel inefficiency

The new power units use one third less fuel compared to the previous 2.4-litre V8 engines. However, Honda has to use more than its rivals because of the hybrid system issues that it has. The cars are therefore heavier and this means they are even slower.

"To keep pace with its rivals and to compensate for the hybrid system flaws, the power unit has to burn more fuel, especially during the opening stages of the race. This means that they have to add more fuel into the car, probably as much as 10kg more than its rivals for some races. This has a weight penalty and therefore slows the car further."

Sve ove stvari su dale tanku liniju McLarenu, na kraju su za 2016-u povecali svoj turbo, ali nisu odstupili od size - ziro filozofije i konstantno se vrte u krug.
McLaren-Honda debuted its novel, ultra-compact "size zero" concept last year, where the tight packaging of the rear was possible because the turbo is located actually inside the "vee" of the engine.

According to Britain's Motor Sport Magazine, the Honda turbo is bigger for 2016, with Yasuhisa Arai confirming that it will be "around the same size" as the Mercedes unit.

The "size zero" concept, however, is staying
Opet kazem koji je cilj McLarena s Hondom? Ovi stalno govore da imaju rijesenje, ali ga na stazi nema. Ako je uspjeh doci do 7-8 pozicije, ukrasti koji bod nek se roknu. Djaba McLarenu dobra sasija kad ovi izgorise ispod poklopca - nepouzdani su.

McLaren jasno ne zeli da bude on krivac, oni imaju jasno svoju viziju, Honda pokusava istu da prati, ali jadna ugusi se, zbog toga je puna kapa svega McLarenu.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 20:50
Postao Ferrari
Size zero koncept je zasigurno utjecao na sav razvoj Hondinog motora, ali pobogu da na dan današnji i dalje nemaju PU koji je sposoban odvrtiti 4 vikenda bez problema? To je neoprostivo.

Pa pogledajmo samo ovogodišnji (ali i prošlogodišnji) RBR, Ferrari i Merc. Oni su na stražnjem kraju gotovo pa jednako uski kao i McLaren 2015. i 2016.
Pogotovo ovogodišnji RBR
slika

MP4 30
[ link do slike ]

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 15.03.2017., 22:40
Postao HeatBlast44
Nije to toliko u Mc'Larenu koliko je u Hondi, hajde prvu godinu size zero ne ide, drugu i nekako, ali vec trecu sezonu nit imaju snage niti ekonomicnosti, kamoli pouzdanosti.
Najvece cudo mi je kako su kod njih usisnici sićušni, a stalno prica pregrijavanje i lose hladjenje. Daj Boze da sta bude od njih za par dana u Australiji

slika

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 10:33
Postao Ferrari Maniac
:rofl: Ovaj Bojler je spreman za Vrapče, ta Honda ga je totalno spalila....

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 11:56
Postao Mr.Spaceguy
McLaren razmislja o prelasku na Mercedes

McLaren's contact with Mercedes was characterised by sources as informal and brief and has not led to any resolution on either side.

But the Mercedes board and motorsport boss Toto Wolff are said to be open-minded about the possibility of supplying their former partner

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:15
Postao KERS
Mislim da im niti Renault nebi bio loš potez..imam osjećaj da ce kroz godinu dana Renault biti prava zvijer..

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:30
Postao Mr.Spaceguy
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 54469.html

Evo jos jedan clanak. Slijedi nam razlaz McLarena i Honde.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:37
Postao KERS
Sve je više dima oko razvoda braka..znači vatra gori sve jače? Kako je teško negdje otići s spoznajom da neces vjerojatno završiti pola utrke a moraš preseliti toliko ljudstva i opreme..volju za takvim pothvatom u 3 sezoni više nemozes naci..

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:44
Postao Slavenowsky
Ako se ovo uopste desi, vidjeti ce te kako ce Honda prodisati ako se osamostali ili ako se prislepa tipa Sauberu, kojem ocajnicki trebaju pare.

Trenutacna situacija je isto da igraci iz druge lige igraju za Real Madrid ili Barcelonu (da se neko ne uvrijedi :) ), nije stvar da ne znaju igrati fudbal, vec jednostavno nisu dovoljno fizicki spremni da nose taj teret.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:46
Postao zekohonda
honda je rekla kako neđe do monaca želi znat hoće li bit dobavljač motora i za drugi tim.
tako ja kontam da će se i do monaca znat hoće li ostat s mclarenom... nadam se da se neće povuć potpuno iz f1. :?

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:48
Postao Ferrari
Nemojte biti neozbiljni.
Mclaren nece u pola sezone mjenjati motor. To znaci prakticki u potpunosti novi bolid.
Znaci u 3 mjeseca bi trebali sve nanovo napraviti, elektronika, mjenjac, hlađenje i ostalo.
To je užasno skupo i bili bi automatski u ogromnom zaostatku za 2018.

Re: McLaren Honda

Postano: 16.03.2017., 12:48
Postao KrBoy93
Užas..ako krene loše, ja se nebi čudio da Mclaren ovu sezonu ne završi :prcnjau: Neznam dal je to moguće zbog sponzora i svega ostaloga ali svakako će biti nekih drastičnih kaotičnih harakiri poteza :prcnjau: