Observations of the PU:

Kimi Q3 dropping RPM on his way to turn 11 (between 3:20 and 3:23) and complaining that he likely ran out of the 'K'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipI7g21 ... u.be&t=195

Grosjean radio ''ran out of SOC twice'' in Q3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_osfJvNrg

Ferrari powered cars quite far down the speed traps:


Vettel doing a lot lift and coast which might get indicated by that green led:


Vettel RPM drop and asking about his PU:


Leclerc RPM drop (?) right under the Rolex ad:

zekohonda je napisao/la: 18.03.2019., 08:33 ima li kakvih podataka o sauberu i haas-u?
izgleda da oni nisu imali probleme sa pu.

Kimi 4:00: "We don't have power on straights"

Ma volio bi da je Hughes u pravu, ali jos od testiranja upućuje na to da PU nije pouzdan. A vidjeli smo i ovo kad se Kimi zalio, speed trap i razne čudne modove Ferrarija u utrci.....
Ne zvuci dobro nikako.

Ferrari je napisao/la: 18.03.2019., 01:05

Nadam se da ćemo ovo riješiti, jer dolaze nam ne dvije već TRI staze na kojima je snaga motora SVE.
Bahrain, Kina, Baku...najgori scenarij.

Bit će mi izrazito žao ako Ferrari ne bude konkurentan u Bakuu, to je Charlesu najdraža staza, očekujem ga tamo i u Monacu u najboljem izdanju.

Ništa onda, vraćaj prošlogodišnji motor

Evo pronašao sam na redditu možda najbolju teoriju koja objašnjava što se dogodilo sa Ferrarijem i momčadima koji su koristili njegov PU

Hi all,

following the recent Ferrari's poor result in Melbourne, I tried to investigate and find the reason of the engine lack of speed. Four Ferrari engines were at the bottom of the speed chart, with Leclerc and Magnussen having a maximum speed at the trap lower than the one at the finish line, which is very unusual.

It may be justified with lift and coast, but I have a different idea, especially because you don't do that for the whole race.

As you can see here there is a green LED at the upper left corner of the steering wheel, telling the driver when to lift and coast to minimize the time lost. Despite it being off, the gear change LEDs start going off instead of going on while Vettel is still accelerating, indicating a decreasing speed. It can be seen before turn 1 and turn 3.

Moreover, while battling with Max for 3rd place, before turn 3, 9 and 13 in this other onboard ( the car stops accelerating despite RB being very close. It doesn't sound like a lift and coast at all.

How is it possible then? I would bet on "clipping" or "de-rating". It happened a lot 3/4 years ago. I'll skip some theory on PUs, but basically the PU runs out of electrical energy because the Energy Storage (batteries) is empty. When the PU hasn't the ERS support anymore, it loses a certain amount of power and it starts losing speed because it can't sustain a too high one. It means that despite using a (theorically) sustainable ERS charge/deploy mode during the race, the Energy Storage is always at a low charge and it's empty at the end of the straight. This happens because it's more convenient to use it at the beginning of the straight to accelerate faster rather than having a higher maximum speed.

Using a more conservative mode would have penalized too much the laptime, so they stuck with a medium one.

Vettel probably used a low consumption mode before being reached by Max and then a high one when he was closely followed, indeed in the second video he reaches his overall maximum speed in that exact lap (303 or 304 kph) before turn 1, but then immediately before turn 3 he has 0% charge and gets stuck at 280 kph for almost a second.

Conclusion and TL;DR Ferrari had problem to the ERS (harvesting and/or deploy), not being able to use the hybrid part at its best, similar (but less severe) to the problem occurred to Ricciardo in Monaco.

If you have any questions or doubts or you just disagree, tell me

Edit 1: a possible explanation to everything is that the ICE has some design issues, so it had to be tuned down and they needed to "compensate" with a more aggressive ERS mode when possible, using a lot more energy and inducing de-rates.

Edit 2: this is an answer to u/nugoresu u/edisonlbm u/FlorissVDV u/jim_and_john u/stillusesAOL u/tujuggernaut

It's definitely a systematic problem and my bet is eventually on the ICE rather than the ERS. I skipped some theory on the original answer but now it's needed.

The PU has different modes for ICE and ERS, that are independent. The ICE modes change how fuel is injected, ignition timings, etc, in order to achieve a higher/lower power. This is the famous "party mode" used in Q2/Q3 by some engines, allowing to extract some extra power from the ICE at the cost of higher wear, more knocks, etc. This means the party mode has an allowed number of laps for the entire ICE life (more that 4200 km). If I'm alone in a race I can tune down the ICE to reduce power and wear and maybe gain an extra party mode lap for the next race.

If I discover a major flaw in the design and I have to tune the ICE down to be reliable, losing for example 50 hp, what can I do?

I can compensate for it during the race with a more aggressive ERS mode, but I'll empty the ES soon or later, so this is valid only for a few laps. The total electrical energy used throughout the whole race will remain the same. This can explain why Ferrari pace dropped a lot in 2nd stint.

In quali I use the ERS hotlap mode anyway, with maximum consumption, but it's reasonable to think that the energy recovery from the MGU-H is damaged. This happens because imo using the party mode allows also to harvest extra energy from the exhaust gases flowing in the turbo because of very particular ICE maps. If I harvest less energy, I can empty the battery before reaching the finish line and I have de-rates.

Why does the car still accelerate after de-rating? I may have not reached the balance point between PU power and overall resistance (aero + friction). But remember that the car can still harvest energy from the MGU-H, so after reaching a certain threshold the ECU starts using ONLY the MGU-H (indeed de-rate is theoretically used just for the MGU-K) as a motor again, while the generator side keeps working.

Be careful not to mix de-rating with lift and coast. The rear red light flashes in both occasions, when I'm not deploying energy (ricciardo in Monaco 2018 and rosberg in Barcelona 2016) and when I lift. So some drivers may have decided to lift sooner than others.

I think that also the aero balance had to be compromised in order to achieve a reasonable speed along straights, ruining car performance in corners. A lower downforce also reduces fuel consumption.

I've read a lot of FIA clarifications related to PU during the winter, it can be that one has hurt them but we'll never know.

The overtake button is a special ERS mode in which the maximum energy is deployed (160 hp MGU-K and MGU-H as motor) in higher gears and any throttle %, but it consumes a lot of energy and can be used just for a few seconds.

u/zetorrr

Zanimljiva teorija i ima smisla. Veliko je pitanje koliko se brzo takav problem može riješiti. Ovih 2 tjedna do Bahreina su sad ključ cijele sezone, jer slijede power hungry staze. Ako se problem do tada ne riješi, motaj kabolve.

Nije ništa gotovo. Duga je sezona.
I da popušimo u prve 3-4 utrke i dalje nam ostaje 17-18 utrka da nadoknadimo zaostatak.

Vidjet ćemo kakvi ćemo biti tamo oko Singapura-Rusije-Japana. To je najvažniji dio sezone.

Vjerujem da je bolid dobar jer nemoguće je da se ovako degradiralo preko noći. Ako riješimo PU onda ćemo se moći igrati i sa pravim setupom.

Do tada, kompromis.

Treba samo držati hladnu glavu. Ovdje će se vidjeti Binotto i njegova spremnost da bude na ovoj poziciji.

Da sam Binotto držao bih ih na kruhu i vodi u duplim smjenama i spavanjem u tvornici 2 tjedna.

Znači dobro sam pretpostavio da je neki gremlin, na ERS-u je, a po ovoj teoriji može biti uzrokovan motorom... nadam se da je to samo do ERS-a kao kod Ricciarda što je bilo u Monaku, jer ako je do ICE, onda je gadna stvar, onda od samog ICE nemaš dovoljno snage = ne možeš pravit dovoljno energije = ERS ne radi u punom kapacitetu, ako sam dobro skontao

Ma ne.

Motor kao motor radi u konzervativnom modu. Turbo se ne vrti na pravim okretajima što znači da MGU-H neće puniti bateriju kako treba. I sve to vodi do toga da motor ne radi ni blizu svoje maximalne snage u utrci i kvalama, baterija se ne puni na istu količinu tj. sporije se puni, što znači da MGU-K ne može ispucati svu snagu i onda moraš koristiti više okretaje na motoru što znači da trošiš više goriva.

Znači moras voziti u sporijem modu rada, moraš rastezati brzine i okretaje što troši više goriva, ERS se ne puni zbog MGU-H i sporijeg turba i K ne može raditi kako treba.

Moraš također ići sa setupom koji je čisti kompromis i ruši balans bolida, manje downforcea, sporiji kroz zavoje, veća potrošnja guma.

57 sekundi iza vodećeg.

Mislim da ste se previše uskoprcali.
Ako je točno ovo s PU, koliko znam imaju pravo napraviti izmjene na istom PU u svrhu pouzdanosti, a da ne poberu kaznu. To što oni govore da im ništa nije jasno otom potom, znaju jako dobro.
Btw nisam gledao utrku nakon 5-tog kruga jer me stream zahebavao, a bilo mi je i prerano (jbg kad živim u UK).
Ovakav rezultat je čak i za mene bio neočekivan, ali gospodo draga Brackley ne postoji. Kakav Stuttgart? Bottasova forma nam nije mogla doći u boljem trenutku , sretni su sada i misle kako je to super ali shvatiti će Wollf kaj to znači samo da izvadi onog Ocona iz ...... za početak, a shvatit će onda kad ih išamaramo ko Khabib Mcgregora.
Jbg mi smo u startu rekli tko nam osvaja naslov, ali oni igraju na kartu he is on fire. Neka neka....
I btw Mercedes može osvojiti samo yorkshire puddings u abu dhabiju. Ova godina je naša! Pazite što vam kažem.

Iceman je napisao/la: 18.03.2019., 18:00 Mislim da ste se previše uskoprcali.
....
Mercedes može osvojiti samo yorkshire puddings u abu dhabiju. Ova godina je naša! Pazite što vam kažem.

Odavno te nisam vidio da pišeš
Apsolutno podržavam i volim pozitivni duh bilo kojeg navijača.
Ovi mlađi ...

Evo da se i ja pridružim. Ok trka je bila katastrofalna sa strane očekivanja ali s druge strane ako nije moglo bolje a nije u ovom trenutku onda ok uzelo se šta se uzeti može. Oko samih timskih naredbi ne vidim nista sporno. Odigrali su kako treba i kako su već najavili. Nadam se da Matia Binotto sa svojim timom ispravi greške što pre i što je najvažnije svi ostanu hladne glave. Hijerarhijia je uspostavljena i to Ferrariju treba, nazalost jer u ovakvoj F1 nema mesta za bilo kakve sive zone unutar nekog tima. Verujem u dobar povratak u narednim trkama i u dobar razvoj tokom sezone koji je važniji od samog početka. Tu se gubila trka i protiv RB onih godina i protiv Mercedesa prošle godine pogotovu.

Pozdrav

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

Ferrari je od ovog vikenda očekivao da ipak u kvalama neće biti blizu Mercedes, ali su očekivali da će se u utrci moći potući sa njima.
Ovo je dio teksta sa FUanalisitecnica:

At Maranello they knew they couldn’t be at the top of their form because of some too many reliability problems on which they are working but not such as to bring the SF90s to 8 tenths of an average in qualifying and more than 50 seconds in the race. In Australia we didn’t see the SF90 that Binotto & Co expected, the one that according to their simulations should have been 3 tenths of a second from the W10 in qualifying and then play it in the race.

Očekivali su prema simulacijama da će biti oko 3 desetinke od Mercedesa u kvalama i da će biti negdje u egalu u utrci.
Na kraju je to bilo 8 desetinki u kvalama i 50 sekundi u utrci.

Ostatak teksta kaže:

What didn’t work in Melbourne? More factors for sure. Focusing on the first two days of the weekend, and leaving aside the problems at the Power Unit that led to the use in Australia of less pushed maps in order not to compromise the reliability (it was already planned, at the beginning of the weekend), certainly what did not work was the basic setup studied in the simulator.

A more unloaded setup than usual, the result of a compromise to avoid a lower thrust of the Power Unit that did not give the desired results on the track. Both Vettel and Leclerc had to fight both on Friday and Saturday with a very unstable front end that caused a lot of understeer not only at the entrance but especially in the middle of the curve. Even with the setup changes planned in Australia and tested at the Maranello simulator by Wehrlein between Friday and Saturday, there were, unfortunately, no major steps forward.

The result was an opaque but not very negative qualification considering Vettel’s third position. A SF90 that took 7 tenths of a second place from Hamilton’s Pole, of which 2 tenths on the few straights of Albert Park and 5 tenths in the corners.

Usporedba problema sa prošlom godinom:

If last year the biggest problems we had in Australia were to be found on the rear of the SF71H, then corrected very well in Bahrain thanks to a new background specification, in this season 2019 the problems are to be found at the front but, as understood, they would result from the compromise necessary to not lose too much ground on the straight because of a power unit unfortunately overwhelmed.

Therefore the Power Unit would be the real current problem of the Italian Team, as anticipated in the morning on Saturday. Fixed the problems of reliability to the drive unit, consequently you would have more possibilities of settings to fix a front end also very aggressive (the front wing so unloaded on the sides is the right solution?).

Haas i Alfa su također imali problema sa PU ovaj vikend dok je Haas ovaj vikend isto tako koristio nešto umjerenije modove motora jer su imali dobru prednost pred ostatkom grida u sredini:

Power Unit that is creating some too many problems also on the other Ferrari engines, Haas in primis (in the race the use was very cautious), less on Alfa Romeo that has however different accessory components compared to the other two Teams. Both the American and Alfa teams had problems, fortunately solvable, with the hybrid part of the Grosjean and Raikkonen Power Units on Saturday.

Nedjelja i problemi sa PU kod Vettela u utrci:

Moving on to Sunday, the problems at the Power Unit have increased especially on the car of Sebastian Vettel. A slowness of the SF90 that the German driver of the Ferrari at a certain point of the race has revealed via radio “why am I going so slowly? Apart from the first laps where Ferrari allowed the use of a rather aggressive mapping to both drivers, for the rest of the race, race with the most conservative mapping (5 and 6) available to the drivers, the speeds were definitely lower than Mercedes and RedBull, especially on the photocell of the second sector and on the finish line. The same goes for Haas compared to its direct competitors. Three examples regarding Ferrari.

It was the low top speed that exposed Vettel to Verstappen’s braking attack during lap 31. A Ferrari Power Unit, in Engine 5 mode and also this is a signal that more yesterday the Italian PU alas could not be exploited (usually raise the map to protect themselves from any attacks), stripped of paint by his Japanese sister (Honda). Something unthinkable even just 48 hours ago.

Going into more detail, although we are still looking for confirmations, it seems that the main problem had by Vettel yesterday is to be found between the turbocharger group (in Barcelona were highlighted turbo problems) and the hybrid part of the Power Unit.

The two macro parts are obviously connected, both in physical terms and in terms of operation. Decreasing the supercharging pressure not only has a lower power from the endothermic but also a strong repercussion on the recovery of electrical energy through MGU-H with consequent problems especially in the second parts of the straights. Less energy, which also has an impact on fuel consumption.

A bit like it happened to Honda with the first specifications of its Power Units, thirsty for gasoline not so much for a poor endothermic but for the hybrid part not so efficient. And in fact in the second half of yesterday’s race Vettel had to do a lot of fuel saving with the strategy of the Lift and Coast, that is to say travel the last parts of the straight without accelerating. In addition, yesterday it was interesting to see how Vettel used the gear changes in the middle and final part of the race.

I finalno što se dogodilo sa možda i najboljim motorom iz 2018, u 2019 tj. zašto je važno da Ferrarijev bolid ima iznimno jak motor:

The 2019 car, as well as the 2018 from which it derives, has the important need to be supported by a significant amount of horsepower, under penalty of getting rid of those chassis problems never solved in Maranello or a project that has improved in terms of aerodynamic efficiency but that still does not excel at the level of RedBull or better Mercedes.

The need to use rear wings (the aerodynamic element that generates more resistance on current cars) always very loaded, coupled with a macro concept aerodynamic medium / high rake, generate important levels of drag forward that can certainly create problems if the Power Unit is not up to the task. A bit like what happened at RedBull last season where the too short deck put the excellent chassis of the RB14 in trouble on many tracks.

At Maranello, at least officially, the mouths remain sewn (unofficially less…), continuing to deny any problem with the drive unit mounted on the SF90s. Communication understandable if the solution is being defined and limited to the first appointment of the season, much less if the problem could reoccur in the next races that already know of crucial appointments for a Ferrari that has never started so badly in the hybrid era of a world championship.

Ako su mislili biti 0.3 iza Merca u kvalifikacijama i konkurentni u utrci onda je netko u Ferrariju dobro falio matematiku jer je u jednadžbu zaboravio uvrstiti Mercovo sandbagganje

Sve ove teorije mi čak uljevaju neku nadu jer ako novinari i navijači imaju dobro složenu sliku, valjda i ekipa u Maranellu može pronaći nekakvo riješenje do Bahreina.

I da, ovo potvrđuje da se moja nadanja o pronalasku riješenja u simulatoru preko petka i subote nisu obistinila.

Ferrari je vazio za jedan od pouzdanih motora, a ta pouzdanost im sasvim sigurno nece donijeti titulu, jer bolidu je neophodna brzina. Da bi povecali kilovate, motor mora da evoluira, tacnije da jaca. Jedina stvar koja me drzi pod kontrolom da ne popizdim jeste upravo taj motor. Kao sto sam vec rekao, tim da bi napao na titlulu, mora nabaciti nekoliko misica, jer to je jedini nacin da se suprostave Mercedesu. Isto tako labaratorijske analize, kao i analize sa testiranja, mogu donekle dati pravu sliku stanja motora, ali utrka je najrelevantnija. Ferrari je nesto gadno zeznuo na VN Australije!

Nekako mi se cini, ko da su experimetisali sa motorom, tj kako bi iz njega u vise staza izvukli pouzdanost, al da su s time dobro zaribali sa brizinom (nije prvi put da Ferrari fula setup bolida). Mozda u iducoj utrci nece biti previse u "safe" modu, jer Mercedes je u Australiji ocigledno vozio u full-u?

Bilo bi mi drago da je ovo istina, a isto tako i ide na zivce, jer Ferrari nikada nije u stanju da rizikuje nesto, vazda kalkulisu i analiziraju i sto je najgore, kasno reaguju, te su skloni pogreskama.

Iskreno se nadam da ce u Bahreinu Ferrari biti totalno drugaciji, motor je najveca misterija, treba pustiti "Krakena", "pa neka gori stala - gori krava" ....

Summary of why the SF90 wasn't competitive in Australia • The SF90 is too sensitive on bumpy tracks (front suspension is more conservative) and setup was wrong. • Whole packaging was too "closed" for Melbourne, so they had to reduce power to not cause any damage to the new PU

Ferrari vibrira!!!!

Poslano sa mog SM-G928F koristeći Tapatalk

Oglasio se Vuko

https://in.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff ... a/4355088/

Wolff: Heavy Ferrari defeat likely down to wrong set-up